tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC January 11, 2011 5:00pm-6:00pm EST
people even have this hatred of government, granted, government does a lot of bad things, but they don't -- there are a lot of people who see the government as something completely alien and you know, representing a completely tribe than them. >> the concept of us and the indulgence of us and them breeds everything you just described. a pleasure to have you back. i am dylan ratigan. "hardball's" up right now. let's go to a higher level. let's play "hardball." good evening i'm chris matthews in washington. i want to focus on the cross hairs. if you don't want to hear, just go to your desktop and look up cross hairs. it will make the same point.
go to google and write, cross hairs under the news. it will take you to one person. one american political figure. it's the person who's made cross hairs her political signature. want to know who this person doesn't like, just check the cross hairs. how this politician i.d.s the preferred target. don't retreat, comes the command from the same politician, reload. reload, of course. don't forget the check those cross hairs when you do about the enemy. last spring before she was shot, congresswoman giffords said she was in the the so-called politician's list. she drew her on conclusions, quote, when people do that, they've got to realize there's consequences to that action. well now after the shooting and the deaths, the politician who put giffords and others in her cross hairs, she said they're to do with something else, with surveying.
that's not the way this crime's going to get written up in the history accounts. it will include an account of how congresswoman giffords had been targeting by one person. former governor, sarah palin. now, with all the history in this county tr in support of the second amend m, there's an up to date history of rejecting politicians who use gun play. sharron angle in nevada talked of second amendment remedies in congress in a need to quote take out harry reid. an opponent of debbie wasserman shulgts invited people to shoot. as republican todd harris put it today, governor palin is now missing an opportunity to show she's a leader at a higher level. let's see whether she joins the country. however we disagree in this country, people shouldn't be
talking about guns. reloading or targets as a way to solve political arguments. it's in the governor's hands. let's bring in zinnsi cynthia t and richard wolffe. this is an unusual juxtaposition of somebody who's -- we have a fairly vivid evidence of if not causality, argue causality, the language meaning and then the reality. you use words that mean certain things then they happen and you wonder, should i have used those words. i think most would think like that. governor palin has yet to say she's shouldn't talk like this. >> and that's the least she has to do. she went much to far in her use of violence imagery. did she mean to incite anyone to violence? it's not clear. >> what did she mean to do when she had a target, put up these
cross hairs. that's what they are. looking at the map now of various congressional people she wanted taken out, if you will. then used the word, bulls eye. talked about reloading. why did she use that? is this cowgirl? annie oakley? >> very much so. she cherishes her image of the alaska frontierswoman. tough, self-reliant. she's tougher than any democrat, she's the mama grizzly. but that language, that rhetoric, that imagery can go too far and all she had to do was say, i wish i hadn't said that. i am so sorry that this happened. i shouldn't have used that language, those images and she hasn't done that. >> here's what she tweeted in march of last year to promote that map --
shesz she's constantly throwing this all together. she knows what a gun set is. shooting the caribou standing there. what's it all about? is this something you need to do on the right now to encourage people to get involved in voting? >> cultural politics at play and by the way, democrats have been playing with it, too. gifford was progun. it's cultural politics saying i speak to this american culture, this western culture that maybe the president or others don't. there is a line she's crossed over in using reload and by the way, that e-mail she sent to glenn beck, when she said there will be no peace with politico's speak so capitalize, there's a
vague threat in there. all of this stuff has an underlying threat? >> what does it mean. no justice, no peace. >> this is part of the idea that your government is out there, trying to threaten you, take away your freedoms. >> glenn beck, here he is offering himself up as sort of her spokesperson. >> i said, sarah, as you know, peace is always the answer. i know you're feeling the same heat if not much more on this, i want you to know you have my support, but please, look into protection for your family. an attempt on you could bring the republic down. she wrote back in part, i hate violence. i hate war. our children will not have peace
if politicos just capitalize on this as inciting terror and violence. thanks for all you do to send the message of truth and love and god as the answer. >> i love these people who speak for god. i don't know what, i think if palin doesn't correct this quickly and surgically and remove herself from this, it's not about second amendment. it's about bringing guns to political events. we're going to talk about congress people who said i'm going to carry a gun. i've argued with them on the air. why do you bring guns. the bringing of gun play and language of it, not in the second amendment argument, but in the general political discourse. it's not defending your right to own a gun. it's saying let you politicians,
i talked to a congressman from pennsylvania today. he said people come to his political events now carrying guns. he's got to look out at the crowd, nice to meet you guys. >> in the debate to have the republican national committee the other day -- >> how many guns? >> how many guns do you own. >> what's the relevance of that. then one guy says i'm an addict and have four guns making the point. here's somebody who's an associate of sarah palin. a conservative radio talk show host. she said this to tammy bruce on saturday. this is the kind of defense we're getting. let's listen. >> nev
this is idiotic. everybody knows sarah palin is very familiar with the image of a gun sight. the language was bull's eye. lock and reload and everything. now to come out and say that it's something to do with surveying is nonsense cht i will say this again. if she doesn't get off this and have somebody else skate her of it like glenn beck or this person, she is going to be erased as a potential candidate. you cannot run like this. would you disagree? >> we're going to disagree. first of all, doesn't make any sense. if they didn't think -- >> why is she hiding? >> didn't think there was
another interpretation for this, they should have thought this through and none of that stacks up. >> what's reload mean? you're surveying equipment? >> i agree, but the bigger question about leadership is what are people looking for? increase divisions and talk about the threats that we face, the threats to your children or someone that brings the country together. >> apparently going to run against her for president. let's listen to governor pawlenty of minnesota. >> wouldn't have been my style to put the cross hairs on there, but again, there's no evidence to suggest that had anything to do with this mentally unstable person's rage. >> there you have it. >> pawlenty makes a good point. that there is no evidence that this is in any way helped to motivate loughner if he's guilty. but let's be clear that palin's rhetoric was over the top and that's what she should say. and she should stop trying to paint herself at the victim.
and that entire glenn beck tirade, it was as if sarah palin was the victim. well, we have several people dead including a 9-year-old child. a congresswoman fighting for her life. for heaven's sake, sarah palin, come out and say, i shouldn't have said that, i'm very sorry i did and let's all get together and pray for the victims. >> as long as she lives, sarah palin will be checkable on google. you can look up sarah palin and giffords. check it out. it is never going away unless she deals with it. she will always be the candidate who put giffords in her cross hairs before giffords was shot. that is powerful imagery and she ought to deal with it instead of hiding. she is pretty talkative. where has she been for five days except she didn't know what the hell to say. fix it. we've all made mistakes. up next, so much for coin the
patrick kennedy of rhode island lost two uncles to bullets. president kennedy and bobby kennedy. hbs he said there's an obvious connection. kennedy told politico quote -- [ female announcer ] experience dual-action power, "hardball" will be right back. it's the only listerine® that gets teeth two shades whiter and makes tooth enamel two times stronger. get dual-action listerine® whitening rinse. building whiter, stronger teeth.
clearance dupnik has triggered a war of words after he signalled out what he termed a vitriolic rhetoric for perhaps playing a role in this shooting. on monday, rush limbaugh said the sheriff was making a fool of himself. dupnik in turn called rush irresponsible. here's how rush responded to that just today. >> the sheriff clearance dupnik is on the path here of attempting now to expressley personally associate me with this event. we have a law enforcement officer, the sheriff of that county admitting he's got no fact for what he's speculating about. i don't know. maybe pima county would have been better served by the real sheriff, one who spent his time trying to lock up nut bags and criminals rather than finding
ways to excuse them. he hasn't pointed out a single thing that i have said that would inspire such a heinous act. >> clearance dupnik joins us now. let me ask you about what you make of that. did you know you would open up a hornet's nest for the right radio? >> no, i had no idea. >> well, you have. and the question is what do you make of it? do you think that's the right thing to do? do you think there is a connection between the atmospheric, hatred of government you hear every day on radio, of obama, the language all the time that they're evil and taking over the country with socialism. do you think that has anything to do with this person's behavior in this tragedy? >> there's no doubt in my mind. particularly, troubled personalities, which is what
we're dealing with here, are very vulnerable to the emotion that comes out especially anger, hate, paranoia and so forth. when you were talking about sarah palin, i happen to be a not only admirer and somebody who respected gabby giffords, i was involved in her campaign and you talk about cross hairs on gabby giffords. well, i want to tell you that her opponent, who was hardly endorsed very vocally by palin, had an event where the people were invited to a barbecue or something. after the barbecue, if they wanted to, they could each come up and fire an automatic rifle. semiautomatic rifle. the same individual has hundreds of campaign ads starting out by saying, are you as mad at washington? boy, i want to tell you, i sure am. >> you know --
>> and so i think we're talking about the same thing. >> what do you make of palin? i mean, it's not just the cross hairs, which i tell you and she'll always be identified with. you look up cross hairs on google, you get palin. it's because of that map. she talked about bull's eyes, reloading. constantly using this ballistic language. she poses with a big rifle, shooting a caribou. she seems to love this idea of portraying herself a as an annie oakley character. what about bringing guns? you're a law enforcement official. people now show up at political events carrying guns and i asked them, why would you bring a gun to a political event not to a hunt. they say, well, i have a right to. and i say yeah, you have a right to do a lot of things, but why are wrou bringing a gun to a political event and here's this guy who shows up with a gun and
my question is, 20 or 30 people show up with guns. how do you know which is the nut? >> you don't and you don't know which one is going to be enraged at any given second and start using that weapon. >> suppose you were to find out, let's take a look at rush. here he is accusing the democratic party of profiting of the shooting. he said democrats were hoping for an event like this. >> powerful democrats wished for this. it happened on chris matthews' show. powerful democrats wished for this as a means of an opportunity for the president to shore up his sagging base, poll numbers, what have you. viola. in two months time, we have a nut case opening fire in tucson,
arizona and lo and behold, leading democrats are conducting strategy sessions with the president on how he can use the right words to maximize this event. lay this near palin when had nothing to do with it, yet leading democrats hoped for this. interesting conspiracy theory, isn't it? >> if you're a con spear tall nut, i guess so. mark pen was on this program, how if anything like that were to happen, how the president could be a peacemaker. like clinton was after oklahoma city. not how the left could get after the right, but how to calm things down. it was a totally different proposal. it wasn't a conspiracy plan.
like rushbo is alleging for his full mooners out there. but your thought. i guess we have to get back to this environmental question, sheriff, and you're right in the thick of this. you know, when lee harvey oswald went after kennedy and shot him, all the evidence was he was infatuated with castro, a man of the communist world. it was also in a context of dallas being a city that really had a real problem with kennedy. how do you connect the right an left? environmental atmospherics rather with bad psychology, with sickness? how do you connect them? >> well, i suppose that's a matter of opinion, but from my point of view, i would ask the question, who is ub set the most about the anger and hatred and prejudice being generated. the right or the left?
and second of all, i would ask the question, which political party is benefitting from anger at the government? >> well, i suppose the republican party this year, right. so, therefore -- >> and therefore i antis thpit pate that the nut people, some of the nut people, i should say, in the radio and tv business are going to continue to enflame the public with hatred until after 2012. >> i don't know cause and effect, but i know this villainization of the government. the sense of the government is this evil force that has nothing to do with us. that we didn't elect it. even though republicans are proud to say they've elected the congress, this sense that the irs is evil and all this stuff.
thank you for coming on "hardball." you're welcome back any time. mark is director at the southern poverty law center. tell me about this case when you heard about it and your professional reaction on the shootings in tucson. >> well, of course, the first reaction was it was a horror show. to listen to limbaugh quoted on your show saying that democrats hoped for this. hoped for the murder of you know, six people and wounding after 14 others, fairly amazing statement. my reaction was to go and look and try and disearn from what writings were out there from this fellow, what his motives may have been. if he was a political actor, certainly a political act in the sense that he killed a politician or tried to murder a politician. and you know, in looking through that material, really, the conclusion is yes, clearly, this
person was mentally ill. at least as clearly as can be said by a nonprofessional. at the same time, as you look through his materials, you glean a pretty consistent threat. it's about an individual against a tyrannical president. people being controlled by english grammar and so on. but i just think overall, sure, this is not a consistent political thinker. he doesn't have some great, fully formed ideology. he's not connected i don't think, to any groups, but clearly as the sheriff said as well, we absorbed the atmospherics around him. he definitely got into his head that the government was evil and didn't think of the government as real human beings.
>> you're an expert. i trust your jum, but it seems the far left can be as vulnerable to conspiracy theorys as the far right. i've heard whacky theorys about what happened in '63. the dallas police department. the cia, the fbi. everybody. johnson, nixon were all in on killing him if you listen to oliver stone. it seems the left is equally vulnerable. i think it's brain soup. i think some walk into a room and think everybody's plotting against them. they believe that everybody's in cahoots against them. isn't that just brain soup? >> i think there's something to that. i mean, i remember the '60s and early '70s, you know, and the feeling that look, they were worse than real conspiraciecons
but the feels that the establishment was on the map of conspiracy. on the other hand, i think that conspiracy theorizing, first of all, is particularly american. we for some reason as a nation, are really afflict wd this kind of thinking and certainly, over the last 20, 30 years, i think it's fair to say -- >> so you think we're paranoid as a people as the paranoid theory of american thinking. you're into that? >> well, i think there's a lot of truth to it. you look at the european radical right or left for that matter and the thinking by and large is not the same. of course, nazi germany, by jews. but by and large, they're not into conspiracy theorys on the same level and not into religious explanations of the world. it's a much more secular scene. >> i think hitler had a theory about the jews, which was so outrageous beyond belief. thank you for coming on. up next, the tucson gunman
was allowed to own oo semiautomatic handgun despite his troubled past. the clip he used was once banned under federal law. it's now legal again. that bill was allowed to expire because of action by the gun rights people. so why dot we have reasonable gun control laws in this country? why have both sides caved into the wishes of the people who support the second amendment all the way? [ male announcer ] 95% of all americans aren't getting enough whole grain.
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well, we're back and as reported last night, i can't believe this news in the wake of saturday's shooting, at least two members of the united states congress say they're now going to carry guns to feature meetings with constituents. jason chaffetz and heath shuler both hold conceal and carry permits, so they're going to use
them. is this the right way to meet con stitch wents? joining me now -- gentlemen, i think this is an extraordinary idea. i've also heard about the peter king idea, to stop people from bringing weapons. which do you like, congressman cleaver, keeping guns away from political meetings or bringing one yourself to match thefire power of your potential enemies? >> knowing how congress misuses their tongues, i can imagine what would happen if they had guns. >> nice one. >> i don't think that's the smart thing to do. i think congress king has a right idea. there is no excuse, absolutely no excuse for anyone to attend a political gathering with a gun. that sends a bad signal and it could create some bad, bad things if they somehow got out
of control. >> you know, i just wonder about that. seems to me you can be for the second amendment, for the right of hunters and self-protection even in the extreme case of your own government if that's what you believe. it's in the constitution. this guy's walking around, presidential event. show up with guns. how's the secret service going to keep track of all the guns. how do they know the nuts in the room? all they have to do was draw it. i'm not antigun per se, but i don't get it. >> it's insane. since robert kennedy and martin luther king were assassinated, more than a million americans in the united states have been killed by guns. of course that does include suicides and some accidental deaths, but we live in a violent culture that no other industry experiences. 150,000 gun deaths just in this
last decade. and in fact, the supreme court, even though i disagree with the ruling, they said that you could have conditions under sale and the commercial of transactions of guns and certainly, what we are at least taught to do is reinstate the assault weapon ban. why somebody needs a gun with 30 rounds. has nothing to do with hunting -- >> it's the slippery slope argument. if you start taking away the right to own these magazines with all the bullets in them, the right to own a semi-automatic -- >> shouldn't that little girl have had the freedom to go to a discussion with her congresswoman without getting killed? the nra does bear responsibility, but it's largely
the congress. >> let's talk about the mix of vitriol. you were in that famous scene, i don't know you sir, but i have seen you walk past that line of people. we u this guy spat all over you basically, and this kind of anger coming right to you, there you are, a gentleman member of congress and you get this kind of abuse. there you are wiping your face off. imagine if that guy's got a gun on him and more attitude coming at you. >> well, what has happened in congress and around the nation for that matter is thoo we have forgotten how to have a civil discourse. right now, there is no way we can in a very sane manner, have a discussion about guns, for example. because we have not established the rules for conduct. we can't have a debate now
because all debates seem to be fact free. and if there are no rules, unwritten and unspoken rules that would require the least amount of common decency, we can't revolve any problems. and we are, we have an avalanche of problems falling and right now, ideology trumps problem solving. >> and if you're really crazy politically, you can always find a group of bloggers to support your craziest ideas and you can enjoy their company. >> i wish we had more people like cleaver in public service. i should mention this legislation by peter king. i was on a conference call this morning and it seemed like a good idea -- >> is it constitutional? >> i'm not going to support it. whether it's constitutional or not. it implies that we're more concerned about ourselves than our constituents. we talk about the fact that
there have been a million people killed since robert kennedy and king. what about those people? they should be our first consideration. >> what about people riding the subway every night, the night shift. >> that's why carolyn mccarthy was involved. her husband was mowed down with an assault weapon. >> i don't think it's about ideology. i think you can still respect the point of view of others, doesn't mean he's evil. this fundamental problem we have today, a person disagrees with you, they're evil. that is childish, high school and perpetrated too much on the air waves. thank you, both, for joining us. up next, we've heard sheriff dupnik and others criticize the talk we've heard on radio. what they're saying, plus, what they're hearing from listeners. ♪ ooh, ah la, la, la ♪
stocks breaking a three-day losing streak with modest gains. moving up 34 points, the s&p 500 adding four and nasdaq climbing nine. energy shares in the spotlight on supply disruptions. stat oil is closing two fields in the north seas and the trans alaska pipeline is still closed. scott cohn reporting a slower than expected process fixing the leak. meanwhi meanwhile, the euro surged to its highest level in six weeks. verizon, apple and at&t all ending lower after verizon said
it will start selling the iphone. parent company of series and k-mart soaring 7%. that's it from, cnbc, now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." what's been the role of talk radio and what are people saying out there? what do people think about this tragedy last week? i want to go to the radio jocks, michael smerconish is on here a lot as my sub. and steven cones. thank you, both, for coming on. first, michael, what are people saying out there? you've got a lot of hours with people. what are they saying about this tragedy and its meaning
politically? >> what i'm hearing mostly from callers and i've talked about it for six hours this week. they don't see a direct causal connection between as i put it, the hatriolic comments and shooting on saturday. however, they view it as chance to have a conversation about the discourse in this nation. i think it's appalling, it's been getting worse. although i'm not one to say that gun belongs in the hand of a particular talk show host because they caused it -- i've been doing this for 15 years and it has never been at the fever pitch that i have found it since this president came into office. >> i have to tell you, i'll mention a couple of names without getting into too many fights. mark levine, who every time you listen to them are furious at the left. with anger that's just builds
and builds in their voice and by the time they go to commercial, they're just in some rage with ugly talk. ugly sounding talk. and it never changes. it never modulated. they must have an audience. i looked at the numbers today. they have big audiences. >> the sheriff is tucson was right, chris. it does impact people who may have a mental problem or may not. and they just have an anger toward government, but a little push to the right and they are there and that little girl who went down to meet the congressperson who lost her life for absolutely nothing is a witness to what we've seen over and over again. this kind of violence. idea that sarah palin, who was a governor of a state would put cross hairs over congressional districts and then a week or so later, a congressperson is almost fatally shot and a
federal judge is killed and other bystanders and others who came out to meet their congressperson were shot the way they were, there is a direct relationship. this person, i get he's mentally ill, but how do we know that what he heard on his radio, saw on his website, did not impact him to make that decision? >> i guess the question, you and i are both within the 40 yard line. i don't think we operate too far down field in either direction. i speak for both. center left, center right, depending on the issue. there are some people that work at extremes. they see the other end after the field as evil. awful. and they use that language when they talk about the other side. isn't that part of the problem and doesn't that give them moral license to people who have crazy mind to start with? >> short answer is yes. you mentioned earlier that you find it objectionable when everything is cast as the
government. my pet peeve is the way this is all cast as a revolution. i mean, to listen to some of this talk, chris, you would swear we're about to overthrow king george iii. >> we didn't elect king george. i keep reminding people of that. you got what you voted for. it's not like they're from mars. stop re-electing the same old guy or woman if you want change. it's self-directed, most of this. >> when wha i see happening is that revolutionary script. i remember congressman mike cassel being at a town hall meeting in delaware and a woman stands up and she is frothing at the mouth screaming, i want my country back. she wants it back from the
muslim, kenyan born prison. the insanity of this is that the audience was right there with her and i looked at that video, i was frightened. i said, these are people who are on the edge and if somebody pushes them over, god help us all. >> thank you. wish we had a lot more time. up next, the intern credited with saving congresswoman giffords' life. he's going to join us when we return. there he is. to try lifting one of these. a unique sea salt added to over 40 campbell's condensed soups. helps us reduce sodium, but not flavor. so do a few lifts. campbell's.® it's amazing what soup can do.™ but when i was diagnosed with prostate cancer... i needed a coach. our doctor was great, but with so many tough decisions i felt lost. unitedhealthcare offered us a specially trained rn who helped us weigh and understand all our options.
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welcome back to "hardball." 20-year-old political intern daniel hernandez rushed to congresswoman giffords' side after the shooting this weekend and as ministered first aid. saturday was his first day on the job. he joins us from the university of tucson. i can't say enough about you, young man. i guess what we all want to know is what happened and if you could give us a fresh description of what it was like to be there the role you played, what you saw. go ahead. >> um, hi, chris, thanks for
having me. i was in my role as an intern helping to staff this event called congress in your corner, where the congresswoman would get a chance to speak one-on-one with her constituents. i was in charge of signing people in and making sure we could control the trav soik that everyone had the same opportunity to speak with the congresswoman. ten minutes into the beginning of congress on your corner, shots were fired. i may have heard someone yell "gun" and my first instinct was to head where the congresswoman would be, because where i was at the back of the line i was 30 to 40 feet away and i couldn't see what was going on. um -- >> when you -- >> once the -- >> she had had just been shot in the head. what did you do to treat her, with first aid? >> when i got to where the congresswoman was, there was a few other people on the ground and using basic triage, i was trying to see who still had a pulse, who was still breathing, so i didn't see the congresswoman first. after about two or three people, however, i saw the congresswoman had, indeed, been hit and i
started to apply pressure to her wound but before i did that, i lifted her up because in the position she was in, she was vulnerable to asphyxiation just because she could have choked on her own blood from the wound. i propped her had up against my chest and started applying pressure to her wound to prevent blood loss. >> your training, what was the extent of your training to be able to know what to do? >> very -- the most basic you can get really are. in high school, i did a training program as a certified nursing assistant, as a phlebotomist, so i was able to get just the most basic first aid and triage. >> tell me about your new boss. >> um, actually, i have known gaby for some time. i started in 2008 on her congressional campaign as an intern. so she wasn't my new boss, she is a old friend. she is someone who i have known for, like i said, years. in 2010, i had the opportunity to work with her again this time, i was working as a campaign manager for a local
legislative district representative and his district is within her congressional district. so when she retained her seat, i was very excited to apply for an internship with her office. so she was just -- she is the -- >> tell me about the political environment in that district. i note border issues are very hot, immigration, illegal immigration, undocumented workers that is a hot issue, is that something, obsession with the people or just come up once in a while with certain people? >> being a border district, it obviously has a lot of concern about national security as well as border security, but i wouldn't be able to speak too much about the concerns of the people in the district other than what i've seen and i've seen, especially during elections, a lot of concerns about border security. >> how would you describe congresswoman giffords? is she a moderate democratic, centrist democrat, liberal, what would you call her? >> i definitely call hear moderate. she is really true to her district. she is -- has been a great
representative and will continue to be one and she is just an amazing human being. >> well, you must be, too. and i guess -- i can only say i'm so admiring of what you were able to do in those difficult circumstances. you showed a lot of grace under pressure there. thank you so much for being on the show tonight on "hardball," daniel hernandez. >> thank you, chris. goonchtd luck with your career and life. when we return, let finish with a remind over america's greatness. we need great news tonight. we he got a reminder of very great news. you are watching "hardball," only on msnbc. [ female announcer ] this is not a prescription. this is norma.
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let me finish tonight with an american story that reminds us, a good time to do so what a great country we are, what good people we have and have had showing their bravery to keep us safe. richard winters, remember that name, never forget it if you can, richard winters. he was the commanding officer of easy company, the american army, great courage and up matched patriotism fought its way all the way from the beaches of normandy in june 1944 wait to hitler's mountain hideaway in may 1945. dropped behind enemy lines prior to the landings the beach, winters led his unit to fight the battle of the bulge and on through germany itself one. of the sergeants remembers him under enemy fire. he was the first one out there yelling follow me, he got shot in the leg and still kept going. at one point with just 35 men, one of his platoons routed two german companies of 300 men.